Illu vie hermot, Reehandiä ikävä.

[macisti]

Kuinka saan auki monisivuisen PDF:n kaikki sivut? ja onko EXPORT-toiminnossa tai jossain muualla ominaisuus jolla saisin tallennettua vain valitut objektit? Tai onnistuuko nämä Indesignissa? Tule takaisin Freehanska.

[AppleFarmer]

Illustrator ei tue monisivuisia dokkareita. En tiedä jos homma toimisi sillä Multipage plugilla.

[Nemo]

Ou jee. Olen ihan skugelissa Illun kanssa.

Ihan vakavasti ottaen tällaiselle amatöörikäyttäjälle Illu on melkoinen painajainen. Toiminnot ovat epäloogisia ja monimutkaisia. Osaan käyttää todella montaa Pro-softaa hyvin mutta Illun kanssa on aivan perusasioitakin joutunut opettelemaan uusiksi. Esim. objektien valintakin on toteutettu niin hankalasti että klikkauksia kertyy dokkaria kohden kymmeniä enemmän kuin FH:ssa. Jotenkin koko softa tuntuu kovin cadmaiselta eikä lainkaan sellaiselta jossa voisi vapaasti antaa palaa.

[lasse.a83]

Täällä taas toisinpäin

minusta freehand on sekava ja Illu taas päivän selvä ja helppo.

[frissy]

Itse vihaan taas molempia

Tosin ymmärrän kyllä niiden vahvuudet ja käytän niitä, mutta photari + piirtopöytä...sitä vapautta!

[lasse.a83]

Itse vihaan taas molempia

Tosin ymmärrän kyllä niiden vahvuudet ja käytän niitä, mutta photari + piirtopöytä...sitä vapautta!

Photari nyt ei oo ihan sama asia kuin illu ja freehand.

[frissy]

Tiedän, tarkoitin vain sitä, että vektoriohjelmista nyt ei vapautta saa vaikka kuinka yrittäisi.

Ps. graffaa väännetty jo yli 10v

[PowerMac]

Friikku se kökkö on tänä päivänä. Tulostukseen ei ole mitään luottamista enää ja toimintojen rajoittuneisuus Illuun verrattuna on aikas iso. Friikkua ja Illua käytän molempia mutta jos uuden työn avaa, se on ilman muuta Illussa. Freehand on muuten ihan suomalainen ilmiö. Missään muualla mokomaa fontinsotkijaa ja kuvan epäluotettavaa ohjelmaa ei käytetä kuin täällä. Kuvien tuki on avuton, maskit pitää tehdä erikseen kun Friikku ei tue natiivia Photarin psd:tä yms.

[akihauru]

Freehand rulettaa. Kaikki graffaduunit edelleen teen vielä MX-versiolla, ja sen muutaman kerran kun on Illun erehtynyt käynnistämään, on tullut todella paha mieli.

Harmi vaan että Friikkari on aidosti viety jo ajat sitten saunan taakse, ja Indesign/Illun haltuunotto on vääjäämättä edessäpäin.

[Pastori]

Indesign/Illun haltuunotto on vääjäämättä edessäpäin.

Ja sen jälkeen sä ajattelet, että mikset vaihtanut jo aiemmin. Näin kävi mulle.

[PowerMac]

Niin se tökki mullakin. Nyt kun sitä on käyttänyt, huomaa että se on parempi noista kahdesta. Takaisin Friikkuun ei ole kaipuuta.

[Macco]

Niin se tökki mullakin. Nyt kun sitä on käyttänyt, huomaa että se on parempi noista kahdesta. Takaisin Friikkuun ei ole kaipuuta.

Freehand tuntuu rajoittuneelta ja kömpelöltä kun Illustratoriin ja varsinkin InDesigniin tottuu. Nimim. Ei tahdo avata Freehandiä enää koskaan.

[akihauru]

Kyllä. Kyseessähän on vanha kunnon "vanha koira ei opi uusia kujeita" - ilmiö. Mutta jos homma toimii, niin homma toimii. Ja meikä tykkää kun homma toimii . Indesignin haltuunotto on monen työpäivän pituinen homma, joten se vaan siirtyy ja siirtyy...

[Pastori]

Mulle olennaisinta tässä Indesign, Illustrator ja Photoshop symbioosissa on tuo natiivitiedostojen toimiminen naapurisoftissa.

On se kivaa kun läpinkyvyydet toimii suoraan psd filen avulla ilman mitään polkujen siirtelyä yms. kikkailua. Samaten on kiva nostella ai filet suoraan indesigniin.

Uuteen Indyynhän voi jo sijoitella Indesign dokkareitakin.

AU. Ei ole ikävä FreeHandia ei.

[Fixx]

Freekusta on aika helppo hypätä InDesigniin, ei siinä kauaa nokka tuhise. Eihän siitä tietty kaikkia Freekun vempeleitä löydy joten ehkä hommat näiltä osin tyhmistyy, toisaalta siinä on kaikkea kivaa mitä Freekussa ei ole tai ei saa vaan toimimaan.
Illu onkin sitten jo eri projekti...

[frissy]

Indesign on kyllä sydäntä lähellä

Illun kanssa menee hermot yhtä lailla kuin friikin kanssa. Tosin se on ihan omasta takaa, koska mulla on syvä inho vektoreihin. Ei niinkään lopputulos, se on hienoa, mutta työskentely niiden kanssa. Jokainen kerta palaa päreet

[PowerMac]

Friikusta jäi kaipaamaan "find and replace"-toimintoa. Sitä kun joutuu tekemään sellaisia numerosarjoja joissa viikko vaihtuu. Hullukaan niitä ei yksitellen vaihda kun sivulla on n. 50 samaa numerosarjaa. Se tehdään Friikulla kun Illusta ei vastaavaa toimintoa löydy....vai löytyykö?

[PowerMac]

Mulle olennaisinta tässä Indesign, Illustrator ja Photoshop symbioosissa on tuo natiivitiedostojen toimiminen naapurisoftissa.

On se kivaa kun läpinkyvyydet toimii suoraan psd filen avulla ilman mitään polkujen siirtelyä yms. kikkailua. Samaten on kiva nostella ai filet suoraan indesigniin.

Uuteen Indyynhän voi jo sijoitella Indesign dokkareitakin.

AU. Ei ole ikävä FreeHandia ei.

Tää psd-toiminto on helkkarin hyvä. Saa pehmeäreunaisia syväyksiäkin hyvin helposti.

[Macco]

Tää psd-toiminto on helkkarin hyvä. Saa pehmeäreunaisia syväyksiäkin hyvin helposti.

Ja tällä jätkällä ensimmäinen syy siihen, miksi Freehand lensi kertaheitolla romukoppaan. Eipä silti, on sitä joutunut sieltä silloin tällöin takaisinkin poimimaan, mutta onneksi tosi harvoin.

[PowerMac]

Joo, välillä on järkevää tehdä joku asia FreeHandilla ja tuoda takaisin Illuun. Tosin tämäkin asia usein on vaan omasta taitamattomuudesta kiinni. CS3 Illun pitäisi kuulemma lukea natiivia MX:ää. En ole päässyt vielä kokeilemaan. CS2:ssa friikussa kannattaa fontit konvertoida ja viedä se FH8:na jolloin häiveet säilyy ehjinä.

Esim. elementtien piilottaminen pois tieltä on kätevä toiminto. Friikussa sitten vaihdetaan leijaria.

[Rondheim]

i won't start about the multipage thing - it’s mentioned often enough and really, it's not even nearly the most important advantage of freehand over illustrator, altough it is GOOD. here's my list of top other reasons to still prefer freehand (unloved and aged as it may be) and not wanting to 'upgrade' to illustrator. and mind you, most of the reasons are really not that exotic, they are simply the result of the fact that the people working on illustrator just can't seem to get some of the fundamental basics of working with vector graphics right, even after 13 'upgrades'.
basically three things: simplicity, functionality and intuition. even the simplest of things are (still) hard to understand and difficult to manage in illustrator, whereas freehand has always made very complex and difficult things very easy to understand and manage...
1. the fine art of selecting objects... (it's the number one thing because it's what you do most with either program)?1a. in freehand you can do twice as much with one selection tool as you can in illustrator with THREE selection tools; IN HALF THE TIME. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.?1b. probably the most annoying and bewildering illustrator 'feature' since version '88 is 'contact sensitive' selection. it means that ANYTHING you touch while dragging the selection tool is selected (even an invisible masked graphic that you didn't even know was there), which in turn means that it is practically impossible to select only the objects you want. freehand has the same 'feature' since version 10, but luckily it gives you the possibility to choose and the default mode is still that only objects that fall entirely within the selection area are selected. this makes much more sense and in practice it's a lot more workable and FASTER. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider to upgrade.?1c. freehand has always had an incredibly easy and powerful way of subselecting parts of a group or superselecting the group that an object belongs to (with modifier keys), even if that group is within another group within another group etc. illustrator anyone? adobe, please explain to us why we should consider to upgrade.?1d. deselecting points on a path, or deselecting anything for that matter, has always been simple and straightforward in freehand. in illustrator i've finally stopped trying to deselect anything because it is simply too frustrating... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
2. the fine art of drawing in postscript... (for crying out loud adobe, YOU invented it, now look what you've done with it)?2a. in freehand you can do twice as much with one path tool (by using the command, alt and shift keys) as you can in illustrator with four (4!) path tools; IN A QUARTER OF THE TIME. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.?2b. freehand has known the concept of cornerpoints, curvepoints and tangentpoints since version 1, and drawing and editing paths has always been a breeze. illustrator version 13 is still completely and utterly ignorant in this respect and it's still a pain to draw even the simplest of shapes... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.?2c. in freehand only a closed path can have a fill which makes perfect sense, but in illustrator an open path can also have a fill, which is prehistoric, annoying, totally useless and prone to problems. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
3. the fine art of displaying objects?3a. in freehand there is a clear difference (visible and functional) between a grouped path and a non-grouped path or between grouped objects and non-grouped objects. grouping is meant to make working with complex graphics and layouts easier, but that entire concept still seems wasted on the developers of illustrator. illustrator insists that a complex graphic or a complex layout IS complex and that it should be presented to you likewise at all times and that as a result it should also be very difficult to work with. freehand has always done a fantastic job at making complex things easy. so, adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.?3b. illustrator insists on showing things in keyline mode that should be hidden altogether, like entire masked graphics, or all the 200 steps of a gradient...
4. freehand needs less than half the amount of palettes as illustrator to get to the same basic relevant information. can someone explain to me why illustrator needs some 30 palettes for it's core functionality (and add another 60 (!) or so for random other unneeded nonsense). i spend half my time, trying to find the right palette. bottomline: in illustrator i will be working late still trying to find that palette, in freehand i will be lying on the beach because the job is done... adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
5. illustrator has an incredible amount of unnessessary tools, apart from the ones mentioned earlier: a scissors tool, a blend tool, NINE graph tools, an eyedropper tool, EIGHT symbol tools, three pencil tools, SIX text tools... mind you, all the things you can do with these tools, can be done in freehand equally good or better without a tool. it's a lot cleaner and less confusing, a lot easier and more precise. adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
6. typographic control in illustrator 13 is still inferior to that of freehand 5.5 (15 years ago...). adobe, please explain to us why we should consider THAT an upgrade.
some random madness in illustrator:
6. freehand has always had the simple but beautiful 'clone' command, whereas illustrator still wants us to copy and 'paste in front'. plain stupid.
7. a filter menu AND an effect menu? come on, really?
8. define a fontstyle in paragraph styles when you already have characterstyles? think again. hard...
9. pffff, etc.
all in all, illustrator has since it's beginning made the impression of a program that was not very well thought through at all. merely a random bunch of features carelessly thrown together and sold as a drawing program who's main purpose seemed to be to frustrate it's users. and it seems to me that it still is. freehand on the other hand has always struck me as a clever, well thought out program. sadly it didn't fit in macromedia's strategy so it was neglected from version 5.5 on up. upgrades were sloppy and macromedia slowly and painfully killed one of the best graphics apps ever made. the only real advantages of illustrator over freehand that i can think of right now are smoother screen display, a better 'expand stroke' function and transparency. it seems to me that it would have been a lot easier for adobe to add those few things to freehand and ditch illustrator, than what adobe in its infinite wisdom is doing now... it is sad that the best of the two packages is killed in favour of it's half wit counterpart and it suggests that product quality is not among adobe's current focusses. and since i'm not at all confident that adobe will listen to comments like these, let alone make illustrator better, indeed, i'd say it's high time someone sat down and wrote us a new shiny graphics program, just like our deceased friend.

[Rondheim]

now that i've spit out my disappointment and anger, maybe it's time for the positive approach. as someone mentioned earlier, i think no one here cares what name our favorite program has (it might as well be called adobe illustrator) or who made it, we only want a truly great, versatile design program that makes us productive beyond our dreams and that's easy and fun to use.

here's what i think adobe should copy from freehand to make illustrator exactly that:

1. make selecting and deselecting straightforward and logical
1a. PLEASE, ONLY ONE selection tool, that behaves differently when a certain modifier key is pressed (e.g. alt select = subselect). no more unnecessary, frustrating, time consuming and RSI invoking switching of tools.
1b. PLEASE allow the user the choice of contact sentitive selecting or not.
1c. alt-clicking a path selects the entire path if the path is grouped or is part of a group, and selects just the segment you clicked on if ungrouped.
1d. when you subsequently click a point, select that point; shift-click it again and it's deselected while the rest of the selection remains untouched (really, it's that simple).
1e. clicking 'through' objects to select underlying objects (check indesign)
1f. clicking within the bounding box of an already selected underlying object doesn't change the selection to the topmost object. this allows you to move the underlying object easily even though it's below another object.
1g. have easy key strokes for absolute and relative deselecting. freehand has the tab key to deselect all (absolute) and the wonderful tilde key to superselect (relative): it deselects the current object and in stead selects the group that the object is part of. it works with points, parts of a group and masked objects. an incredibly simple and truly wonderful feature, check freehand to see how great it is.
1h. make it impossible to select parts of a masked graphic that fall outside the mask. it makes no sense and it's frustrating because these parts are always selected by accident.

2. make creating en editing paths straightforward, fast and logical
2a. PLEASE, ONLY ONE path tool, that behaves differently when a certain modifier key is pressed (check freehand to see what happens when you alt click, alt drag, shift click, command drag or any combination thereof with the path tool). no more unnecessary, time consuming and RSI invoking switching of tools.
2b. PLEASE, implement the concept of corner points, curve points and tangent points, it's so much easier.
2c. lose the scissors tool. simply select a point and choose a 'split' command.
2d. make primitives (rectangle, oval, polygon etc.) behave as primitives as long as they are not ungrouped into regular paths, which means that certain attributes specific to that primitive can still be altered in a simple way, e.g. the number of spikes in a star, the roundness of the corners of a rectangle and the number of steps in a blend.
2e. check freehand to see what happens when you alt drag a point that has no bezier control points... and copy it!

-----------------------
these features alone would already make illustrator the ALMOST IDEAL TOOL for me...
-----------------------

3. show me only the things that i want to see
3a. show details only when needed. when a path is grouped, it means that it is no longer a path but that it's become an object of which the details are no longer of any concern to me. so, when i select a grouped path or a group of paths, i don't want to see it's details (points and keyline paths) anymore. to see what i mean, compare a selected group consisting of many paths in freehand and the same group in illustrator...
3b. lose the bounding box around everything that is selected. i understand the idea behind it, but in practice it's very confusing and not helpful. maybe copy the freehand way: show the bounding box only on double click.
3c. show the masked parts of a masked graphic ONLY when the entire contents of a mask is selected (this is where the tilde key in freehand excels, check it out).

4. be more context sensitive
4a. don't scatter all the vital characteristics of an object over at least 10 palettes, but make ONE CONTEXT SENSITIVE inspector that gives easy access to everything vital to the selected object ONLY...

5. rethink the toolbox, the palettes and the menu's. adobe's interface philosophy is clear: all functions - and even subfunctions - need either a separate toolbox tool or a separate palette. result: a perverse orgy of tools and palettes. wrong philosophy. tools and palettes are only necessary when everything else is less than ideal. some functions need a tool, others a menu command. think functionality and not corporate strategy... freehand once again proves it: less is more. i'd say, now that it's yours, copy it! no more lawsuits...

6. and of course, the multipage thing. and i don't think it should be a threat to indesign either. indesign is about large, structured documents. illustrator (freehand ;-) is about small and flexible, and having multiple pages in multiple sizes in one document would be irresistable.

i could go on a little longer but i think you get the idea. again, if illustrator were a great program i would gladly forget freehand and i hope these few hints will help you (and me) get there.

[PowerMac]

Saisko saman suomeksi ja kieliopissa tunnetaan isot kirjaimet muuallakin kuin HUUTOKOHDISSA!

[Rondheim]

DTP-orja PowerMac varmasti osaa myös englantia.

[PowerMac]

Kyllä ymmärtää. Ymmärtää myös kielioppia joka kanssalukijoita kohtaan olisi kohtuullista. Ainakin mä niin ajattelen. Luulen että osalta kirjoittajia jää lukematta noin pitkät tekstit, vaikka sisältäisivät tärkeääkin asiaa, koska eivät ole kotimaisella kielellä.

Ei pidä loukkaantua, kirjoita aivan kuten haluat